Curse

Nude Nira · Apr 07, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

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Maybe we could have an account setting, Loot Scaling On or Loot Scaling Off. You may only choose this once. After that, all people are separated based on which they chose. Still the same district setting but they can't trade between the two player groups, they can't enter explorable areas with members of the other group, etc. And we'll leave it like that for about a month. Then we'll take note of which group is happier.

Thats a bit extreme...Can you imagine how angry people would be when they waited 15 minutes to start a group in some high-end area, and try to enter and have a message say "Sorry X supports/does not support LS". And if people couldn't trade with each other, that would be absoulte chaos. I'm sure you would see "WTS X Price=X, LS PLAYERS ONLY!"

Why do I always end up on the top of a new page... xD

reetkever · Apr 07, 2008, 05:07 PM // 17:07

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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Yeah, the fault was of the buyer, but the buyer that pays more, and the buyer that paid more before LS was the one that farmed or bought to gold-sellers, not the one that played without farming.

Before the Loot Scaling, there wasn't anybody that didn't farm. It was still needed to farm for 1,5K Droks armour in most cases, and farming was fun these days. Sure, there were some poor people who didn't farm, but usually they weren't very far in the game yet or just never expected to buy anything.

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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

LS AND inscriptions made those prices to go down. Farmers do not get such much money, so they cannot pay so much, so the sellers had to decrease prices to get the items sold.

Sellers for weapons STILL have high prices. Req 9 Chaos Axes are still 100K + ecto's, so are the other rare skins. LS didn't help to bring these prices down by 1 bit. In fact, LS didn't bring the price down of ANYTHING.

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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Remember that HM was added along some other stuff. And with new armors requiring materials that were not used so much, it was normal to get those prices up.

I'm talking about the first few hours. There is no way so many people could've had access to the new armours in that time. The cause of the rise in prices was definately the Loot Scaling. Without a steady income of items, everything becomes scarce and will increase in value.

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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Now that the income is similar, you don't get such prices. Again, LS proves itself to work.

LS only decrease the difference between playing with farming and without farming.

And since farming is not the way intended to get the cash, and it NEVER was. LS is good.

Farming IS the way intended to get cash. It might not be SOLO-farming, but Guild Wars has an economy where one does not get enough money by just playing the Storyline. In order to become wealthy, one must farm. If A-Net didn't mean for people to farm, they wouldn't have made armours so expensive, and drops so rare.

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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

LS affects everyone, it's not like some people can get more than others.
Onlythose that waste time trading get extra cash, but they have to spend time spamming or posting and waiting for buyers in outposts and things like that to compensate a little bit. They are paid for the communication effort.

This is where you are completely wrong. Hardcore farmers DO make more money than others. They farm stuff that is on the exemption list and can easily make 20K a day. These are the farmers that SHOULD be nerfed - they make more cash than a Casual Farmer who is farming trolls.

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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

If you play normally, it doesn't affect you.
If you farm solo or in reduced parties, you have nothing to complain about, since that is not supported, like running or rushing missions.

Is it really that hard to understand?

Playing normally =/= not farming. Farming Trolls was for the Casual player, in other words, the 'normal' players. The Loot Scaling just kicked the casual player in the nuts, decreasing income and increasing prices of stuff. Only the people that want/expect nothing in this game are truly satisfied by the LS, because others can't get anything in this situation, either.

Again, the Loot Scaling does not bear any advantages to ANYONE. Prices didn't go down because of it, and people don't get richer because of it.

Iuris · Apr 07, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Nonsense.

Who IS affected by loot scaling? One who plays solo - only farmers.

Who is NOT affected by loot scaling? One who plays in a group all the time - one doing quests and missions.

Before loot scaling, in order to enter the economy, you HAD to solo farm. YOu had no choice - all prices were HIGH. You did NOT earn enough money playing the game normally. It may have been a bit easier to get the money for 15k armor - but it was HARDER to get the money for the RUNES.

I still play the same: full party, questing and missioning. My earnings allow me to purchase 15k armor during the course of a player's campaign. With the runes. It used to be I coudn't even afford a superior vigor rune, because they cost too much. The only thing I could do to earn one was to FARM.

Stop pretending that loot scaling is against the casual player. It isn't. The fixed prices, which are the only thing that got relatively more expensive due to less money in circulation are negligible compared to the price of items that got much cheaper due to the market's general lowering of prices.

ElinoraNeSangre · Apr 07, 2008, 05:57 PM // 17:57

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Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Crikey, can the pro-LS continent come up with any argument other than "the other side is ignorant" or some other insult?

Have they really lost the debate that badly?

Seems so, but then, when the facts are against you, and you are flat wrong, I guess insulting, trolling and general flame abuse is all you have left.

Coming from the "I stopped giving a darn about it a year ago" camp, here's my thoughts:

The anti-LS argument seems to consist of "it makes us sad pandas and we don't want to be sad pandas". Both sides have about the same level of fact.

Some facts (I'm sure not all):
-Agreed, LS did not change prices that much for players
-We don't have much data on how it affected hardcore farmers and gold resellers
-LS did not affect anything of actual value (really, it only has to do with piles of gold drops and crappy items - golds, greens, rare crafting materials, lockpicks, lots of stuff is exempt from LS)
-The RTM trading policy will not *solve* the gold seller problem
-In GW, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer; those who hae been around longer and gathered lots from before nerfs have a clear advantage over those that haven't. LS or no, that's probably not going to change.
-The rich don't want the poor to have a chance to be rich because that might displace the e-peen.
-GW on average rewards farming a lot, and rewards casual playing little; LS helps close the gap.
-A person CAN make enough money just playing the game to get what they *need* (1k max armor and collector's weapons).

Why do people think that comparing who is happier (LS or no LS) has anything to do with how it should be? Players will always be happier if they can rake in the bucks. That has more to do with base human greed than it does LS. People will also be happier if you make all skills cost 5 energy, all armor 1k with cheap materials, and every creature drops 500 gold when you kill it. But that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

As I've said, I couldn't care less at this point. I think leaving it alone is the right thing to do, but on the other hand, if they removed it, maybe these threads would go away. Now THAT would make me happier.

Destro Maniak · Apr 07, 2008, 06:45 PM // 18:45

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Originally Posted by Nude Nira

Thats a bit extreme...Can you imagine how angry people would be when they waited 15 minutes to start a group in some high-end area, and try to enter and have a message say "Sorry X supports/does not support LS". And if people couldn't trade with each other, that would be absoulte chaos. I'm sure you would see "WTS X Price=X, LS PLAYERS ONLY!"

Why do I always end up on the top of a new page... xD

Maybe you werent in the game at those days the American And European Servers was seperate. There werent any chaos. And Ill be happy not to see people who like lootscaling

Destro Maniak · Apr 07, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

BTW Just To ADD:
LS didnt made the people get equal.
And usually people dont want to be equal.
This is why capitalism is prefered than communism

MithranArkanere · Apr 07, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

The only argument here is that is was added for a reason, and that reason is still valid, and, like it or not as long as the game continues like it is now, with areas designed for parties of fixed members, it will always be valid.

The ones that want extra cash can still get it. And they should add the Xunlai Market to make so easier, but without LS only those that farm and sell to merchants get more cash. And the game was not designed to be like that.

Asking to rmove LS is like asking for all the things Anet will never add to GW1.

Just wait and get GW2. There will be more areas fit to solo play. In GW1 there are only a few of them.

Shadow Kurd · Apr 07, 2008, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Chocolate muffins are better

Nude Nira · Apr 07, 2008, 07:46 PM // 19:46

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Maybe you werent in the game at those days the American And European Servers was seperate. There werent any chaos. And Ill be happy not to see people who like lootscaling

I was, and that not really the same thing. That guy said there wouldn't be a seperation of the pro-LS and anti-LS.

Creeping Carl · Apr 07, 2008, 07:50 PM // 19:50

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Originally Posted by Sjeng

Oh, and I suppose this is an excellent point you made then?:

I made many posts before that one. And I wasnt the only one who made logical rational points. But you and the anti-LS crowd chose not to listen.

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Originally Posted by Sjeng

*slaps forehead* Hey look, I can do that too

Hi ANET. Just wanted to let you know that LS sucks (but you already knew that) and that players calling for it's removal have a right to do so. The anti-farming code was a much better solution. LS is just plain unfair for actual players. There are better ways to discourage bots, without discourageing actual players as you do so often. I hope that you'll do a better job in GW2 from the start, so threads like these can belong to the past. Thanks.

@Carl: I deeply resent your insult. FYI: Calling people with a different view than yours ignorant is pretty ignorant.

Have a right to do so? This is the extreme sense of entitlement that I've mocked before.

And you have it backwards, LS makes a lot more balanced for the average player and narrows the wealth gap between the non farmer and the hardcore farmer. But you'll never understand it and hence there's no point in explaining it any further to you and others anymore.

You guys can cry all you want about LS but it will never get removed. Now I'm just going to post my approval about LS so ANET will apply it into GW2 as well.

Angelic Upstart · Apr 07, 2008, 07:54 PM // 19:54

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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

.

In GW1 there are only a few of them.

That statement is categorically wrong, please enlighten yourself and check out the farming thread in Campfire.

MithranArkanere · Apr 07, 2008, 08:00 PM // 20:00

I said 'to fit solo play', not 'where you can solo play'. I meant places where you enter there Solo only, like Fronis, the Wintersday missions or Tihark Orchard.
I meant 'solo by design', not 'places that can be soloed with a certain build'.

And you will not find much places that can be fully Vanquished solo.
And, of course, there are absolutely not many areas that can be fully vanquished solo by any profession from any campaign.

Angelic Upstart · Apr 07, 2008, 08:03 PM // 20:03

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Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

You guys can cry all you want about LS but it will never get removed. Now I'm just going to post my approval about LS so ANET will apply it into GW2 as well.

Answer me this, did you ever play GW prior to lootscaling, yes or no.?

Because your logic is flawed beyond belief, in case you havent seen it, the 70% who want it removed are not crying as you put it, but merely stating thier opinion based on thier experience of GW before LS.
Knowing how much everyone one would benefit from it, in terms of not struggling to raise money.

Angelic Upstart · Apr 07, 2008, 08:04 PM // 20:04

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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I said 'to fit solo play', not 'where you can solo play'. I meant places where you enter there Solo only, like Fronis, the Wintersday missions or Tihark Orchard.
I meant 'solo by design', not 'places that can be soloed with a certain build'.

And you will not find much places that can be fully Vanquished solo.

I didnt say there were,

Nude Nira · Apr 07, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

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Now I'm just going to post my approval about LS so ANET will apply it into GW2 as well.

So, basically, you're saying your opinion, and those that want to keep LS is the only one that matters? I hope Anet makes GW2 nothing like you want it to be.

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@Carl: I deeply resent your insult. FYI: Calling people with a different view than yours ignorant is pretty ignorant.

Ignorance=bliss?

MithranArkanere · Apr 07, 2008, 08:11 PM // 20:11

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Originally Posted by Nude Nira

So, basically, you're saying your opinion, and those that want to keep LS is the only one that matters? I hope Anet makes GW2 nothing like you want it to be.

Ignorance=bliss?

It's not about player opinions. It's about game design. Remember? Just like with 7 heroes.

Game design.

Fay Vert · Apr 07, 2008, 08:32 PM // 20:32

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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

It's not about player opinions. It's about game design. Remember? Just like with 7 heroes.

Game design.

Not the same.

Show us threads that are thousands of posts long with 70% voting in favor for 7 heroes.

Creeping Carl · Apr 07, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

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Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

Answer me this, did you ever play GW prior to lootscaling, yes or no.?

Because your logic is flawed beyond belief, in case you havent seen it, the 70% who want it removed are not crying as you put it, but merely stating thier opinion based on thier experience of GW before LS.
Knowing how much everyone one would benefit from it, in terms of not struggling to raise money.

Yes, I've played way before LS. My first exposure to GW was in the betas.

Ok. Maybe not ALL are crying about it. Sorry if you were not. But plenty are. But even though you're the majority (at least on the forums) it still doesnt mean you're right or know what's right for the game.

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Originally Posted by Nude Nira

So, basically, you're saying your opinion, and those that want to keep LS is the only one that matters? I hope Anet makes GW2 nothing like you want it to be.

Ignorance=bliss?

Nope. My opinion isnt the only one that matters. I'm just adding my teeny tiny voice despite the roar of the anti-LS mob. I wanted ANET to see that not everyone is unaware (since the word ignorant offends you so much) of what removing LS would do.

And obviously ignorance is not bliss since you anti-LS people are obviously not in bliss.

Savio · Apr 07, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

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Originally Posted by reetkever

Before the Loot Scaling, there wasn't anybody that didn't farm. It was still needed to farm for 1,5K Droks armour in most cases

No.

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In order to become wealthy, one must farm.

Lion's Arch says hi.

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Again, the Loot Scaling does not bear any advantages to ANYONE. Prices didn't go down because of it, and people don't get richer because of it.

In exchange for loot scaling, people got hard mode. Or more accurately, loot scaling was implemented because of hard mode.

As far as inflation goes, prices didn't steadily drop since the beginning of Guild Wars. Factions and its changes was the first time that prices went down dramatically, and it wasn't a constant drop since then.

At any rate, inflation is less of an issue than why solo farmers should get more money. Maybe I'm biased, but giving solo farmers more money isn't the same as giving everyone more money.

Fay Vert · Apr 07, 2008, 08:47 PM // 20:47

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Originally Posted by Creeping Carl

And obviously ignorance is not bliss since you anti-LS people are obviously not in bliss.

You just can't do it can you?

You can't hold up a side of a debate without resorting to insults, why is this? Do you have a problem?